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January 27, 2006

Never again

Rather than just understanding that the election of Hamas, a terrorist group with a written charter dedicated to the eradication of Israel and the recapture of the Waqf wherever it exists (are you listening, Spain?), was a rare moment of clarity, the cacaphony from the usual "Palestinian" supporters towards people pointing out this fact remains one of attacking the realists. What? they say You want the extermination of the Palestinians(sic)?

No. Not extermination. Separation.

"Palestinians" as used to describe Arabs has only existed for less than 40 years. "Palestine" was the Roman name given the region after their defeat of the second nation of the state of Israel in 70 AD and the word "Palestinians" was used exclusively to describe JEWS.

That said, Israel should follow what Sharon has been pursuing.... SEPARATION. You don't transfer out the Arabs of the West Bank or Gaza, you don't 'exterminate' them, you separate from them. One cannot negotionate or have diplomatic relations with people who overwhelmingly want you murdered. Arab "Palestinians" do not negotiate in good faith. They engage in the moslem Koranic deception of "hudna". No wonder Hitler and the Mufti of Jerusalem were good pals... Hitler did his own 'hudna' when he negotiated "peace" with Chamberlain while rearming and planning to invade and conquer. The Oslo accords turned out to be the same as Munich Agreement.

This goes for the United States, too. We should immediately cease all foreign aid to "Palestinians."

Posted by Darleen at January 27, 2006 08:57 AM

Comments

It's true that the Palestinians (at least some of them) would like to exterminate Israel.

Cooler heads may prevail. Somehow or another.

Maybe a political union between the Palestinian State and Israel proper.

Posted by: Carl W. Goss at January 27, 2006 09:36 AM

Carl, Hamas has declared that it will not make peace with Israel. If cooler heads were going to prevail, I doubt Hamas would have been elected in the first place.

So---what now?

Posted by: TalkinKamel at January 27, 2006 03:44 PM

- Maybe Jhimmy could run for President on the Hamas ticket....

Posted by: Big Bang Hunter at January 28, 2006 06:35 AM

Palestinians" as used to describe Arabs has only existed for less than 40 years

Darleen, your historical ignorance in this area is predictable, if lamentable.

Try doing some background reading before launching into these emotionally driven proclamations against an entire people.

Remember, the Arabs of Palestine have an equally long history in the region that was, for centuries, occupied by Rome, and in more recent times the Turks, then the Brits.

At the time of the infamous Balfour Declaration (1917), the deal struck between the Zionists and the British who occupied Palestine, "the Jewish population of Palestine nummbered some 56,000 against an Arab population of 600,000, or less than 10 percent." (Avi Shlaim, The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World
p.7).
Also, do not forget that the modern Jewish state-- a nation re-founded after nearly 2,000 years of absence (imagine if you can the Cherokee Indians deciding after only 200 years of exile that they deserve a nation again within the sovereign borders of the U.S.)--was founded only after decades of terrorist acts by Jewish groups such as the Stern Gang, the Irgun and the Hagana, which committed massacres against British and Arab innocents (e.g., the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on July 2, 1946, which killed 91 people). Another example: in September 1948, after the U.S. appointed Count Folke Bernadotte of Sweden to mediate between the Arabs and the Israelis, and after he recommended that the U.N. should affirm "the right of the Arab refugees to return to their homes in Jewish controlled territory at the earliest possible date," the Israelis responded the following day by assassinating Bernadotte in Jerusalem.

This is all documented, and you can find accurate and unbiased resources on the web and in your local bookstore-- if you choose to study the history rather than jump to the arguments and misinformed conclusions that justify your narrow mindset.

To be clear on this topic: I do not support Hamas and I do not support terrorism. I also do not support the killing of Jews, or the redrawing of borders that were established after the 1949 armistice. I do support the idea that money drives everything and that an economic isolation of Hamas by the West will go a long way toward forcing them to recognize Israel.

The Right is secretly (or maybe not so secretly) celebrating this election result because it gives them the excuse to pursue their own unilateral disengagement-- more land grabs, more walls, more Apartheid-like measures by the Israelis who never really wanted a Palestinian state to begin with and would prefer to relocate all of the Arabs to another country. That won't solve anything-- it will make matters worse.

Would you have supported separate but equal co-existence between blacks and whites in this country 50 years ago?

Now, I shall sit back and watch as you and your fan club berate me, without supporting your assertions, and call me names.

Posted by: Brad at January 28, 2006 08:24 AM

Oh, Brad, Brad, Brad, still playing the race card, heh, heh, heh.

You do need to study more history. The Arabs were confined to the area we call Saudi Arabia---"Arabia Felix" by the Romans, until they were unified into a conquering force by Mohammed, when they came boiling out of there, to conquer the Middle East, which had formerly been ruled by various groups of Christians, the Persian Empire, etc. (Ever heard of the Byzantines?) I think you ought to try reading some historians like Will Durant, for a clearer picture of the Moslem world, and what life was like for those it conquered. Also, Bat Ye'or "Dhimitude," and "The Legacy of Jihad." Also, Zoe Oldenbourg's "The Crusades."

Before the Brits, the area was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, and, so far from being "The Third Holiest Site in Islam" was considered a poor, backwater village; Visitors from the West, such as Mark Twain, remarked on how run-down and desolate the place seemed. They also noticed that, yeah, some Jews were still living there. The place just was not that important to Islam. They only became interested in it when it looked as if they could squeeze revenues out of Chritian tourists, or if somebody such as the Byzantines, or the Crusaders, wanted it.

I don't really think the "right" (whatever that means---everybody who doesn't, say, believe the Palestinians are blameless angels?) is rejoicing over this situation, so much as they're fed up with the ongoing myth of poor, pitiful Palestine, and OH, THE MODERATES WILL REIGN IN THE MILITANTS! OH, THE PEACE PROCESS! OH, ARAFAT! OH, OH, OH! And always, always, the endless plea to give them more money and support their hate-filled, ultra-militant society, and force the Israelis to assist in their own suicide by giving them more land.

Yes, it's definitely a moment for some black humor, a bit of laughing up the ol' sleeve---but the situation is, honestly, horrendous, and you liberals aren't going to help anybody---Israeli or Arab---by insisting that we continue business as usual, or demonizing the Jews.

And, Brad, you say you don't support Hamas, but your cracks about Israeli "apartheit" and how Israel "Never really wanted a Palestinian state" (Uh---why should they, exactly?) indicate to me you're far too warmhearted towards these guys. What, exactly, do you find so sad about people who urge their own kids to blow themselves up? As I stated earlier, I think you're still blinded by the 60's PLUCKY LITTLE PALESTINE, FIGHTING THE EVIL WESTERN GOLIATH myth; also, have you studied the Grand Mufti of Jersualem during WWII, and his connection with Arafat? The PLO had a closer association with the Nazis than I think you realize.

The Israelis pulled out---which, is supposedly, what the Palestinians wanted. They can either pull together and actually try to create a state, instead of murdering Israeli civilians, or they can kill each other. Their choice. There's no reason on the face of the earth why America, or Israel, should have to subsidize them, hold their hands, build them the state they won't build for themselves, offer them jobs and medical care---which they use to smuggle in homicide bombers, etc., etc., etc. and all of it!

Enough is enough.


Posted by: TalkinKamel at January 28, 2006 10:25 AM

. . . Also, have you read Hamas' charter? (Widely available on the Internet) and, having read it, do you really think they can be treated as anything other than a terrorist group at this point? And are you really surprised that, no, neither Israel nor anybody else, wants these guys to have their own state?

(And you accuse the "right" of rejoicing, because, oh, sob, sob, it's just another chance to be meaaaan to the poor Palestinians; did you guys on the Left: after Munich, after Leon Klinghoffer, after the Intifada, after all that's happened REALLY think these murderous thugs---indeed, I do call them that---were just going to fall into each other's arms swearing Islamic brotherhood forever, then create a peaceful, democratic society? And didn't you ever worry that yet another totalitarian Islamfacist society in the area might ally themselves with, say, the Mad Mullahs, or Syria, and create havoc in the region? No, sane people, right or left, aren't rejoicing; the situation's scary, though, as I said, it does have its moments of black humor. . . )

I wish the Left would try championing the Tibetans for a change, or the black Christians and Animists of Dafur, or Moslem women---in short, people who really are being oppressed. It's constant championing of the Palestinians is becoming dangerous to everybody, including the Palestinians themselves.

Posted by: TalkinKamel at January 28, 2006 10:34 AM

the area was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, and...was considered a poor, backwater village

by whom? the West, of course. And bear in mind, this was before a certain fossil fuel dominated the geopolitics of the region.

The Israelis pulled out---which, is supposedly, what the Palestinians wanted

Israel's borders need to go back to the pre-1967 war as a true sign of cooperation. Of course, you and your anti-Arab friends don't want co-operation except through unilateral force, a la Jabotinsky's narrative.
Their choice
"Choice"? What choice did they have this time, KamelPlunkett? Their choice was to re-elect the money-laundering party of Arafat, which had been in power too long and was not serving the interests of anyone but the corrupt leadership, and Hamas-- which is unfortunately the party of resistance. This is really bad news for peace-- I have no doubts about that.

Read Robert Fisk. Durant's full of shit. So are you.

Posted by: Brad at January 28, 2006 10:45 AM

Right back at ya, Brad.

:>)

Posted by: TalkinKamel at January 28, 2006 04:02 PM

More reasons to steer clear of internal Islamic politics....

Posted by: Carl W. Goss at January 29, 2006 09:27 AM

Brad

Please cite me when the Arab nation of Palestine ever existed. You can't because it never did. Israel in 1948 accepted that there would be a two-state solution. Arabs rejected it and started the war that exists today. Why the fuck should Israel "go back" to 1967 borders? Do you want the US to go back to 1847 borders? You want Spain to cough up their country to Osama since the moslems ruled it for 800 years?

Give it a break, Brad. When you hold the Jewish state of Israel doesn't have the right to BE the Jewish state of Israel but hold it to a DIFFERENT standard than other nations, you should know that fools no one on your base motives.

Posted by: Darleen at January 29, 2006 07:27 PM