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August 25, 2005

Jesus was not a 'socialist'

Coffee. check
Muffin. check
Giggles at comment section. check

Being on vacation means only checking my 'puter on a very occassional basis and that can make for some real hilarious discoveries the next morning before we pack and hit the road again.

Commenter Hrubec was so enamored of his own frothing he posted under another name below and completely missed my humorous jab at his allowing his daughter to be a Girl Scout. How does such a fine self-identified Leftist allow for a GS in the family? An organization built on personal responsibility, patriotism and volunteerism?

The seemingly incompatible love that conservatives have for capitalism and the socialist teachings of Christ always confuse me for example.

Yes, socialism is incompatible with capitalism, but it is also incompatible with charity and morality.

Jesus was not a socialist. No where in His teachings does one find a call that GOVERNMENT must use its power to redistribute property from the earners to the needers. Indeed, Jesus preached about the difference between the Government and individuals.

Jesus was about voluntary charity. And only capitalism makes that possible.

Yesterday we spent the day at the Monterey Bay Aquarium a perfect example of how capitalism trumps socialism/communism/totalitarian authoritarianism every time. It is a triumph of voluntary charity, having been built with no government/taxpayer dollars. It was founded with $55 million from David and Lucile Packard. I stood in front of the membership roster at the Aquarium, marveling at the list of names - individuals and foundations - who have contributed to the Foundation that maintains the marvelous work of the Packards. There is a 2 to 1 ratio of volunteers to employees who help at the Aquarium, everything from answering questions from children to feeding the animals.

Without capitalism, this place would never exist. Without capitalism, Americans would not have the deserved reputation as the most charitable people on earth.

Socialism is not about individuals giving of their own earned property. It's about self-selected people of power deciding to fulfill their own desires with someone else's property taken by force.

Morality assumes choice. Socialism is a matter of, at best, amorality, because it robs people of choice.

This is why I find trying to discuss issues with Leftists frustrating. They cannot or will not differentiate between government actions and individual actions. They conflate the realms when it suits them, thus criticism of Leftist speech is "censorship" when done by a non-Leftist individuals, or advocacy of non-Leftist ideas is "trying to shove fascist/religious/rightwing/traditional values down our throats!"

Thus 'Mother' Marionette is the only "authentic" voice of KIA families, regardless of the anti-American/anti-Semitic organizations she has allied herself with (scroll down and check out William Leatherwood's revealing comment here). For those in which the personal is the political possessing the "correct politics" makes for the total of a person's worth. And disagreeing with Leftism is to be dismissed out-of-hand as being inauthentic.

The Girl Scouts are no more "socialist" as Jesus. Though, I can see nervous Leftist parents might want to pretend so to minimize their cognitive dissonance.

Posted by Darleen at August 25, 2005 09:42 AM


Jesus the capitalist? Come on, Darleen!

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, 35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need
--Acts 4:32-35

Think about it. And I am not conflating government actions with individual actions her; rather, I am making an analogy between God with Government.

Indeed, Jesus preached about the difference between the Government and individuals.

You mean, when he said "Render under Caesar those things which are Caesar's"? That was Jesus telling everyone to pay their taxes -- something which a majority of Christian Republicans don't really like to do.

"Morality assumes choice"?? Most forms of Christianity I know tell you that you either Believe or suffer eternal torment.
Not much choice there.

Posted by: Brad at August 25, 2005 03:18 PM

It might help to have some definition of terms here. By "socialism", do you mean any government intervention in the economy? If so, you've got a pretty radical view. The government does a pretty competent job of running meat inspection, fire departments, and national parks. There's a reason why Social Security is one of the best-loved government programs -- it's helped entire generations provide for their retirement, and its administrative costs are incredibly low. I could really do without agribusiness subsidies, though.

There are things that capitalism does well. It makes great computer hardware, good soft drinks, and nifty clothes. I don't want the government meddling with those. As you point out, the Monterey Bay Aquarium is wonderful. On the other hand, capitalism introduces huge layers of bureaucracy into things like health insurance that a government-run system could avoid. (Among other things, a government-run system with universal coverage wouldn't need to spend lots of money figuring out who to deny coverage to on the basis of pre-existing medical conditions. Private insurers are willing to pay their actuaries $10 million so they can avoid paying $11 million to cover sick people's health care. So a lot of money gets blown on things that don't improve anybody's health.)

The choice between government intervention and laissez-faire has to be done on a case-by-case basis, looking at the specifics of the industries involved.

Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf at August 25, 2005 05:34 PM

Neil - you have simply got to be kidding. Government run anything starts in chaos and poor planning and devolves into either total dysfunction, or unattended disrepair. But the costs only escalate, regardless of the actual situation. Whatever the failings of private enterprise, and I agree there are many possible pitfalls along with the successes, it is still the only viable way for most of scociatal tasks to work. Government, by nature, is always a consumer, never a producer. Even in those rare cases where one of the lefts pet projects have worked for a time, eventually they create more problems than they solve, and have to be scrapped or at least radically changed. Eventually all of the givaways run aground. So forget the idea of the Government redistributing the wealth, that is, legislatively stealing for you what you're unwilling or incapible of earning yourself. It has never, and will never work. History has shown that in such glaring and clear terms, its mind boggling that people who think themsleves "elite" can be so gullible as to go on accepting that desasterous fairytale....

Brad - you're indulging in one of the lefts favorite pasttimes.... culling small snippets of text from random places that seem to support their socialist views. Jesus is preaching once again the third leg of "faith, hope, and charity...but the greatest of these is charity... for by this means a man can give back in good works the blesings that G_d hath bestowed on him....". In other words if you are fortunate, Jesus expected you to share your wealth in a beneficent way. But. Not to the point where you, yourself, was made to suffer needlessly. he always preached the pragmativc idea that you can't help others if you can't help yourself.

He also, on many many occasions, makes a lesson to us to find ways to help that give the other person true independence, not just a handout. Recall the parable of the man asking for a fish to eat. "And if you give a man a fish, therefore He hath a meal for a day, and if you teach a man to fish, therefore hath he meals for all his life....". the difference between the socialists and the capitalists rests in those types of cannons. Think on it. Its really not that difficult to understand what Jesus was trying to teach us. Oh, and as too that very twisted analogy about "choice". Just ask yourself what the point of a faith is if your religeous leader, Priest, Rabbi, Reverand, Mullah, whatever, told you: "Oh its ok....you can keep the faith without any real faith just as long as you make the usual donations". Stupid idea wouldn't you say. What exactly wiould be the point of having a faith with no faith in it? Theism is its own reward.

Posted by: Big Bang Hunter at August 25, 2005 07:48 PM

Hunter, if you want to see an example of how government can outperform the private sector, you should take a look at the way VHA hospitals have improved over the past decade. It's proof that at least in health care, publicly run systems can do better than private ones. The article is pretty long, so here are a few key quotes:

The Annals of Internal Medicine recently published a study that compared veterans health facilities with commercial managed-care systems in their treatment of diabetes patients. In seven out of seven measures of quality, the VA provided better care. It gets stranger. Pushed by large employers who are eager to know what they are buying when they purchase health care for their employees, an outfit called the National Committee for Quality Assurance today ranks health-care plans on 17 different performance measures. These include how well the plans manage high blood pressure or how precisely they adhere to standard protocols of evidence-based medicine such as prescribing beta blockers for patients recovering from a heart attack. Winning NCQA's seal of approval is the gold standard in the health-care industry. And who do you suppose this year's winner is: Johns Hopkins? Mayo Clinic? Massachusetts General? Nope. In every single category, the VHA system outperforms the highest rated non-VHA hospitals.

One of the basic problems with the current system of private health insurance, in which workers can end up migrating from one health care provider to another several times in their lives, is explained in the following:

The same problem exists across all health-care markets, and it's one main reason in explaining why the VHA has a quality performance record that exceeds that of private-sector providers. Suppose a private managed-care plan follows the VHA example and invests in a computer program to identify diabetics and keep track of whether they are getting appropriate follow-up care. The costs are all upfront, but the benefits may take 20 years to materialize. And by then, unlike in the VHA system, the patient will likely have moved on to some new health-care plan. As the chief financial officer of one health plan told Casalino: “Why should I spend our money to save money for our competitors?”

In situations where, for whatever reason, companies can't receive the rewards of their own good performance, free markets will fail. Health care is rife with situations like that, and it's one of the reasons why it's particularly apt for government intervention.

It's interesting to note that the New Deal and the decades following it saw a huge increase in the size of government, both in terms of regulation and in terms of entitlement spending. They also saw the American standard of living rise dramatically, and America became the most powerful nation in the world. You can keep laissez-faire capitalism; the American mixed economy is the way to go.

Posted by: Neil the Ethical Werewolf at August 25, 2005 10:32 PM

Yes, Darleen, I posted accidentally as Etienne, since I use that name at a different site. And I'm not a HE. I just use last names as my screen name. But no, dear, I'm a mom just like you. But I'm glad you got a condescending giggle out of it...after all, that's what you do.

Was Jesus a socialist? Not specifically, no, and I only used that term to coincide with the snide topic of your snide post. Jesus was the simplest of preachers. He only had a simple message - Love your enemy. Very radical, very extreme, very very hard to live by - intentionally.

Jesus taught to share all we had with the poor - not as a little charitable driveby to make us feel good while we rake in the big bucks. But as a way of life. Jesus was a radical extremist. He taught that we should turn the other cheek - i.e. appeasement. He taught that no rich man could ever enter the kingdom of heaven. He taught that God would rather have the prayers of a humble beggar praying in secret than those of the wealthy man praying in public. He taught that even the lilies of the field who do not work are cared for by God. He taught that no one should judge anyone else, that those who live in glass houses should not throw stones. And he taught that no one, EVER, had the right to kill another.

I don't expect that many people can live by the teachings of Christ, and it's between them and God if they do or don't. But what is disgusting is watching the LEAST CHRISTIAN people imaginable holding Christianity up, along with OUR nation's flag, as some kind of personal trophy that belongs to them and justifies every evil action they take. American righwing "Christians" (because they are really a disgrace to the word) seem to think that their anti abortion stance gives them the right to supersede Jesus on every other point - they love the death penalty, they LOOOOVE war and flagwaving for war, they support tax and government policies that harm the poor, they rake in wealth, they display religion ostentatiously and crow about their charity, they bloviate about sexual morality (usually with great personal hypocrisy)...In other words, they represent the antithesis of every last thing Jesus taught. In fact, they hold themselves above Jesus, since they contradict his teachings almost constantly. It is a kind of perverted, mutant religion they are following. You have only to listen to Pat Robertson advocating assassination of a democratically elected president, and understand how many of his followers could easily justify that point of view.

But this doesn't faze them. So it shouldn't be any surprise that they also support a version of America where corporations have more rights than individuals, where legitimate dissent is ridiculed and branded as treason, where the president is worshipped as an infallible king instead of what he is - our employee.

Girl Scouts is not a socialist organization. But you know what is? The Armed Forces. I was in the Coast Guard for six years, had an absolute blast - very little income, but everyone got a pretty nice room & board. Married people got more than single people, because they needed more. We had socialized health care, which was really a beautiful thing. We all pulled together, worked together, no income jealousy.

For the record, I'm not a socialist. I'm a garden variety American capitalist, like 99% of all Democrats in America. It's just hilarious to listen to you condescend and ridicule absolutely every alternative viewpoint out of hand. There are benefits to capitalism and socialism, and if we didn't live in such a dictatorship of economic thought, people could probably modify both theories to create one that was better than both, meeting the needs of both the society at large and the individuals within it. But no, it would be better to just keep braying like donkeys that Capitalism is the only good system that ever was or will be and let's laugh our asses off at anyone who tries to think it through. Neil makes the excellent point that we need a mixed economy, not a "rape the poor then force them into our churches for charity" economy.

Darleen, do you have any point to this blog other than to ridicule your fellow Americans who disagree with your king-president? I mean, that and your tv show....

Posted by: Hrubec at August 26, 2005 03:43 AM

How does such a fine self-identified Leftist allow for a GS in the family? An organization built on personal responsibility, patriotism and volunteerism?

You know I missed this, and I just need to add Darleen that you are really a loathsome smug asshole There's no other word for it.

OF COURSE its built on personal responsibility, patriotism and volunteerism. Those ARE my family's values - part of them anyway. My LIBERAL family. My son is in the final stages of his Peace Corps application - which he's entering in concert with a Johns Hopkins graduate program to study Public Environmental Health. He'll travel to Africa, as a peaceful representative of the USA, to help with sewage treatment programs, before returning to the US to finish his degree.

It's pretty disgusting to have to even need to remind you that mixed in with all you money suckers who fondle your egos by giving "charity"...there are actual Americans who LIVE their personal responsibility, patriotism and volunteerism. They don't just crow about it like the Pharisees Jesus condemned.

Posted by: Hrubec at August 26, 2005 03:50 AM

For those who want to refer to jesus as a socialist, they might want to read Dorothy L. sayers essays, "The Other Six Deadly Sins" and "Christian Morality" and pay special attention to the sections in each regarding envy. Envy is what socialism is born out of. It cannot stand for a person to posess what it does not have. rather than work in order to duplicate the ability to posess, envy seeks to punish the one who posesses in the first place by taking it away. Envy also refuses to believe that people are capable of charity therefore the government must redistribute wealth removing the illusion that anybody works to make the world a better place out of the goodness of their hearts.

It's pretty disgusting to have to even need to remind you that mixed in with all you money suckers who fondle your egos by giving "charity"...there are actual Americans who LIVE their personal responsibility, patriotism and volunteerism. They don't just crow about it like the Pharisees Jesus condemned.

Your brush is a bit broad there, Hrubec. Not to mention just as, if not more, smug than you accuse Darleen of being. The only one I see listing all the wonderful things done out of the goodness of their heart is you. I do what I do and it is between me and the person/organization I do it for/with. I do not even deduct contributions on my tax return.
By the way, if you are going to post using a masculine name (Etienne) then don't get upset because somebody uses a masculine pronoun in referring to you.

Posted by: J Rob at August 26, 2005 04:23 AM

I didn't get upset JRob, that Darleen assumed I was male. I just corrected her. Down, boy. Etienne is actualy the last name of one of my childhood next door neighbors, never thought of it as gender specific. But I see you remember your French!

I'm not listing my do-good works, J. I've only mentioned those of my kids. Why? Because the insipid attacks by sanctimonious right wingers on the patriotism, responsibility and volunteerism of liberals deserves as much of a smackdown as i can give it. To them patriotism means ridiculing those they disagree with. Responsibility means blaming Clinton and the "liberal media" for things that are going wrong in a one party (repub) system. And volunteerism...not sure, but I think it means sending money to the RNC.

I really am not interested in reading any parsing of Jesus' words that find ways to make abstruse apologies for right wing perversions of his teachings. I spent 12 years in Catholic schools and learned that any little child can understand the teachings of Christ. There is very little interpretation needed - unless one needs to find ways to justify why acting AGAINST all his teachings is really what he wanted us to do.

Posted by: Hrubec at August 26, 2005 05:14 AM

Dareleen, you offered the Packard Foundation as an example of how capitalism works. Today's Times has an example of how capitalism-- specificaly the Hewlett Packard company-- has taken specific tax credits from recent Congressional legislation and, rather than spread that wealth around, announced huge layoffs:

"A month ago, Hewlett-Packard announced it would lay off 14,500 workers by November 2006. Meanwhile, the company is about to repatriate $14.5 billion in profits it has in overseas accounts at a measly tax of 5.25 percent - an 85 percent discount off the normal corporate rate. The cut-rate repatriation, offered by Congress to American companies that bring profits held in foreign lands home in 2005, was sold to the public as a one-shot deal to generate cash for new hiring. But as its critics warned, the tax cut is functioning instead as a handout for America's most profitable companies." (emphasis added)

So what I want to know is, how does that kind of corporate behavior meld with your contention that capitalism (and specifically wealth generated by the Packards) allows for so much more charity?

Posted by: Brad at August 26, 2005 06:05 AM

- Brad you can always find instances of mean-spirited and shameless abuse in any area of human enterprise. Citing the Enrons of the corporate world as some kind of viable condemnation of the system, in view of the litterily thousands of good law abiding tax paying companies out there, is like defaming everything Christian because of one fallen angel....

- Whorebeak.... (an apropos title now that I know you're something the roughly resembles a female in spite of your hateful, gross mouth) You represent everything wrong with the left as evidenced by your lying, garbage spewing posts. "Love the war and flag waving for the war....love the death penalty" etc etc. All I can say is I truly hope for your sake that some criminal minded animal out there never takes one of your daughters. Turn the other cheek. Yes, I can picture a person that can't even seperate her personal issues from her politics as being that intraspect and balanced in such an event. You'd be out in front of the court house with a pitchfork screaming for His balls on a pike. the most endearing charm of leftist morons is their total lack of shame at their own hypocricies.

Posted by: Big Bang Hunter at August 26, 2005 11:00 AM

Hrubec/Etienne, whatever.

You've made any number of snide, smug, condescending assumptions since I've had the audacity to challenge 'Mother' Marionette and NOT apologize for being an American.

Jesus a "simple preacher?" Uh, before that he was a skilled CARPENTER fully self sufficient and was a teacher, too.

Good Lord, I'm no longer the member of any organized religion but I remember that much of the historical Jesus...not some unwashed hippie type wandering from hovel to hovel BEGGING alms while browbeating the populace.

This was a MAN who was a skilled member of Jewish society before beginning his preaching.

NO WHERE does Jesus threaten people who CHOOSE not to follow him...UNLIKE Islam that would make you take secondary citizenship or die.

Kinda like Leftists who believe that anything to the right of them has no value and needs to be destroyed. Explains the sympathy between Leftists and Islamists. heh.

Glad to see your kids getting some distance from you. Will do them a world of good.

Posted by: Darleen at August 26, 2005 11:09 PM


Just cuz some individuals shoplift or pull bank stickups doesn't mean the government should ban money and trade.

Get a clue. Capitalism as an economic system is the ONLY one that recognizes, as a basis, that the dollar earned belongs primarily to the earner.

Socialism doesn't. Neither does communism.

Collectivism runs on the premise that individuals are incapable of being trusted with their own property.

Please give me ONE Jesus quote that demands the government be in charge of all charity/poor/good works.

Posted by: Darleen at August 26, 2005 11:11 PM


I'll say this just once... the reason the US has the most advance medical technology, the reason Canadians and Brits who don't want to die while waiting in the que, come to the USA for medical care is in direct proportion to how much capitalism still remains in American medicine.

Nationalize it, watch people die.

Go ahead. Enslave docs and nurses and see just how well you fare.


Posted by: Darleen at August 26, 2005 11:15 PM

Sorry, Darleen, I'll tell my priest to stop calling Jesus a simple preacher and tell him from now on he should refer to him as an entrepreneur.

I understand you have no religious training. You're one of the Corporate Repubs, I see, the ones who exploit those softheaded "christians", the kind who don't know one thing that's going on in the world but who've been proseletyzed from the pulpit that God wanted them to vote for Bush because he's "prayerful". They're very convenient for racking up the votes needed to continue destroying the social fabric that binds all of us and makes us a community. You represent the branch of conservativism that's like the bastard child of Ayn Rand and Orwell.

Luckily, the jig is up for y'all. Nasty little creeps like you will be the most fun to watch now that the tide is turning so profoundly. Because you can tell, you really haven't got a clue what is about to hit you. And your temperament will prevent it - just like Bush couldn't see he had no mandate to destroy social security, and was therefore the architect of his own self destruction.

Distance from me? Uh, yeah, in the normal healthy course of development that all families go through. But hate to tell you all six of us just spend 10 days camping in Acadia National Park and wouldn't miss a holiday, concert, marathon, game or birthday together unless a hurricane comes between us. We're a family that nothing can ever pull apart. I'm afraid if you met my kids, and the dozens of wonderful young people they've brought to stay with me, you'd be quite dismayed to find that in the heart of America there are SO MANY beautiful, brilliant, liberal, compassionate, brave young Americans who despise your philosophies and the inevitably sour, foul people that follow them.

I won't apologize for being American either.Unlike you, I actually have served my country. I only find the need - all too often these days - to apologize for sharing it with the likes of YOU.

Posted by: Hrubec at August 27, 2005 04:31 AM

Go ahead. Enslave docs and nurses and see just how well you fare.

Darleen, before you've completely closed your mind to the idea of universal health care, I would strongly encourage you to read
Malcolm Gladwell's article in this week's New Yorker. Capitalism can't solve every probelm on Earth; I think Jesus, who actually lost his temper at the sight of the moneychangers in the Temple, would agree.

Hrubec, I knew there was a reason I keep returning to this blog-- it's to discover and be inspired by fellow progressives like you. Keep it up!

Posted by: Brad at August 27, 2005 07:15 AM

Capitalism isn't perfect, but it's better than the alternative. Free health care and education isn't every thing. Look at Cuba and ask if it's worth it.

Posted by: ratan at August 27, 2005 08:56 AM

The more you ramble, Hrubec/Etienne, the funnier you get.

As I've observed with most "Leftists" you swing between smug attitude of superiority and a closedminded "I got the TRUTH and I don't need no stinkin' discussion with the likes of YOU" debate schtick.

Guess where I discussed the historical Jesus? During my RCIA classes.

Whoops! Funny that, eh, finding out I once was a catechumate.

I grew up in the Presbytarian Church. I had close Catholic and Jewish friends and family, so it was not unusual to find me confortable at Temple, Mass or Sunday Services. My paternal grandmother was Mormon.

So, sweetcheeks, I've always been someone willing to learn, from the inside, about a religion. And the 60's 70's schtick of Jesus as itnerate, unskilled unwashed preacher man is a valid as the portrayl of Mary & Joseph as a homeless couple at the mercy of others.

Bet I can guess the age of your "priest."

The "jig is up?" All us "nasty little creeps?"

Sorry, sister, your cognitive dissonance is showing. You really have few clues to the philosophies underlying the founding of this country and the Constitution. You seem never to have outgrown the 70's. Pity. Another "it's all a Bu$HitlerHaliburtonZionist Conspiracy" monger.

I don't dismay for the youth, except for the stuggle they'll go through once they found out how betrayed they've been by a Leftist "philosophy" that tells them that feeling is superior to thinking and that no individual belongs to his/herself, but that even strangers have a "right" to them, their labor and their property.

All youngsters go through their alturistic FEELINGS stage, usually until they have their first real job and learn about their co-workers, bosses, paying the rent and feeding themselves.

Those that avoid such an awakening usually teach college.


If you think you know why Jesus was mad at the moneychangers in the temple, let me tell you it had not a thing to do with "capitalism."

Posted by: Darleen at August 27, 2005 01:02 PM

Those who talk big about the VA health care system have never dealt with it....

Posted by: Mark at August 27, 2005 01:03 PM

- If the extremist radical left that Sheehan represents follows the usual “big lie”/Press manipulation script which is the heart of the Marxist doctrine, we should be counting down the hours before we hear that she has been threatened with death by some “unknown” right wing nut cases. Its even more probable we’ll see this step, now that the opposition has gathered strength and gravitas. the culmination will be the eventual outing of the real sources for these specious threats, but by then the story will be dead in the press, and the left will have moved-on-dot-moron’d to a new propaganda campaign to keep the rhetoric going.

Posted by: Big Bang Hunter at August 27, 2005 04:44 PM

If you think you know why Jesus was mad at the moneychangers in the temple, let me tell you it had not a thing to do with "capitalism."

What, individuals making money in a temple is not a form of capitalism?

Posted by: Brad at August 27, 2005 08:45 PM

All youngsters go through their alturistic FEELINGS stage, usually until they have their first real job and learn about their co-workers, bosses, paying the rent and feeding themselves.

Of course, the perfection of the conservative idea makes it actually an inevitable result of maturity. What an ass you are, and how little faith you have in mankind.

The Peace Corps guy in my family, the oldest son? Guess where he's been the past 1 1/2 years? Working the sound technology for a major network television station, starting up new affiliates around the region, working a good 70 hours a week, banking a salary that puts mine to shame while he not only pays his own rent (in the most expensive market in the country) but helps out a few old friends who haven't been as lucky post college?

So he's hit the jackpot. And where has this led him? To correct some curriculum needs in night school so that he can ditch the fancy job and go to Africa.

See, lady, it's easy to see why you mock the "catechumens" and why you assume the only basic human urge is selfish greed. You're a narcissist who just assumes that your innate perfection is the standard all other people want to live up to.

Now that the Republican party is self destructing so beautifully - the Abramoff scandals are about to come to open trial, the Able Danger scandal is blowing up back into Repub faces (Schoomaker anyone?), Fitzgerald is about to issue indictments, their corrupt preachers are issuing fatwas on national tv, and most importantly, the Texas Buffoon is quacking like a duck on a firing range...It is just delicious to realize how many smug narcissists like you are just sitting out there, thinking that they are still driving the ship. Look at your governator out there in CA, and see where you all are headed.

And why? Because when all is said and done, you proponents of the ultimate inhumanity and coldbloodedness of mankind are WRONG. You've preyed very effectively on the general apathy and ignorance of Southern and Midwestern Christians...but the truth is you represent the absolute opposite of all they beleive. No one likes to be manipulated and exploited, and even these people can see that that is exactly what the corporate wing of the Repubs have done to them.

Posted by: Hrubec at August 28, 2005 04:23 AM

Oh and thanks Brad, I have a couple of conservative blogs I visit,not sure why I bother with this one since it's really just a silly hatemongering one, with some kind of tv show fixation mixed in.

There are some wonderfully intelligent conservative blogs out there, at which I use a much different posting style. I very much like justoneminute.com...Very smart guys, a lot of old ex-military men who know their stuff. It is very educational to talk to oldstyle honest Republicans who don't have any need to ridicule or mock liberals (goes back to confidence I guess) and who are open to argument. On blogs like that, I find conservatives are currently changing philosophical course very rapidly and many will become our strongest allies as progressives. It also reinforces the thing that all of us who have been in the military understand - we are one country, made up of crazy different people, with ALL kinds of political/social/religious/economic beliefs. This administration has done grievous damage to our nation, but it's only by pulling together that we'll be able to save the country we love.

Posted by: Hrubec at August 28, 2005 04:39 AM

Nice one! I was going to just say "rubbish!" but Brad has opened me up to a whole load of stuff I had forgotten about early "communalist" christianity.

Funny I had this argument with Rightwingsparkle years ago.Can't imagine where it would be in her archives. I remember when the Labour party in my country had positive socialist values. Some of them still do.

Posted by: dave bones at September 7, 2005 02:30 PM